Sunday, May 16, 2010

HPW: Where Are The Moderate Jewish Voices?

I know that it is a few days old but I thought I would take look at Sara Reef's article "Where Are the Moderate Jewish Voices?" The article has it's own problems of course, for instance I think that moderate Jews are very active in the discourse surrounding the Israeli/Arab issue. But my view of what is moderate may not be the same as everyone else's view of what is moderate. What we have to come, though are comments that are clearly not moderate.

The thread has about 380 comments and is fully moderated.

egglady
Israeli forces, and all who abet them, act like the enemy that once killed them -- just because they wanted to.

who38
Of course, Palsestinians should not have a voice; they are not CHOSEN. 

who38
In Israel, does "kinsfolk" include non-Jews?

westakhen
but that is only because they have the upper hand. In effect Zionism flew the airplane that is Israel into the building that is Palestine 60 years ago already, killing thousands upon thousands and destituting millions. The fact that extremist Jews can do so much as they do when their armies already have the upper hand and terrorize the Palestinians on a daily basis for over 60 years just gives an inkling of what they would be capable of if the shoe were on the other foot.

mnkors
Do you consider the Iraq War and its thousands and thousands of victims and displaced? Do you have courage to check who the real instigators of the Iraq War were? Have you heard of Perle, Fief, Wolfowitz, Kristol? People who put Israel first and the US’ blood and treasure distant third?
For too long Israel and its many settlers from Eastern Europe have been promoting the apartheid and ethnic cleansing. A true face of Israel is Avigdor Lieberman, a former Soviet thug and open racist.
 [response]
Peter Noble 2
Well put. You have mentioned what must never be said if we want the illusion of being the eternal victim.
Thank you for posting what I've often grown tired of posting but find like others here it is important to speak up. The more new blood like you the better it is as we can all share the load. You are fanned.

 who38
The right wing fringe of Judaism is far more than 1%. It is being fostered by US Zionists who have turned orthodox Jewish women into brood mares in an attempt to populate Israel with Jewish citiznes. Of course, the fathers of these children are all rabbinical students who need to do nothing but have sex once or twice a month (think of this as "Mother's Day") in return for federal funds.
As long as Arabs refuse to lay down their arms and promise no retaliation, they have a good chance of regaining their property or, at least, retaining what they have. If Israelis lay down their arms, they can always return to Russia, New Jersey, Brooklyn, and the other areas that they came from. I am sure that all of them have dual citizenship. 

phute
[In response to an anti-Arab post] Noticed how loud the settlers screech?  

bbsnews
Voices like GZLives far out yell any moderate on any side. Add to that the fact the Israel's Foreign Ministry pays people to comment on blogs just like this and it makes it hard to even tell who really gives a damn, and who is just on a payroll with an agenda. 

bbsnews
Israel has not yet left Gaza, under the Gaza Disengagement Plan Israel keeps complete control, the Gaza Strip is the modern equivalent to the Warsaw Ghetto, and no amount of dissembling or bluffing it out by you in a talkback is going to change this fact. 

lbsaltzman

I wonder if the extremist "settler groups" who are engaging in this kind of violence understand the terrible significance of spraying painting stars of David on walls of mosques. Similar vandalism against Jews was how the Holocaust started in Nazi Germany.  

audadvnc

Finally, a sensible adult voice from the Jewish community over the Zionist overreach. I'd been dismayed at the increasingly extremist noise coming from the Israeli right-wingers and their paid journalistic whores. Please bring some sense to these idiots!  

raskefing

One of the reasons that moderate Muslim are not heard is because the western press is owned by persons not interested in such views! we are told it is anti- Semitic to say that the press and media is owned by Jews but is this not true ?
I personally have always found Jewish people to be hard working and very liberal in their views but i have always been struck by the Primitive tribal view of many at the same time.How can a just God favor one desert tribe over the rest of humanity and support the pillage and murder as described in the Old testament Bible ?
Is it not a hallmark of civilization to see all men as equal and brothers ? Is not Tribalism a primitive throwback to a time when mankind was ruled by the reptilian brain? 

dmz

So, we are agreed that Israel is a useless ally.
It does not matter whether Israel is willing but cannot or is unwilling and cannot. No matter what, we give money and shed blood for an "ally" that is of no use.
That seems like a real straight forward case of useless.  

 Jim Killingsworth

The murder of children is indeed uncalled for. But I would reserve the word "horrific" for the children slaughtered in Gaza by the Israelis.

hpesr

And you think you are a moderate Jewish voice? If Rachel Corrie caused her own death then Jews caused their own death in Germany and deserved what what they got. Do you see how evil you sound? There is no such thing as a moderate Zionist Jew. Zionism itself is an extremist, racist concept, just as Nazism was. There is no difference. It is like calling Hitler a moderate.  

17 comments:

  1. That's pretty frustrating.
    The real question is where are the moderate Palestinian and Arab voices?
    Ever before Israel was created, the Jews wanted peace. And even after the Arabs aggression in 1967, Israel was eager to give away all her newly acquired land for peace. This is not moderate? This isn't honorable??

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  2. No one ever talks about "moderate" Arab voices. The tendency on Left is to take Arab extremism as a given and demand that Israel fulfill extreme Arab demands regardless of the consequences to its survival.

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  3. Well guys, it is like I said: It all depends on what position you consider to be "moderate."

    When the alternative is Hamas and the PLO, a Palestinian Arab who accepts Israel's right to exist is quite moderate by comparison. But that isn't good enough on it's own to make peace.

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  4. "Ever before Israel was created, the Jews wanted peace"

    Repeat that utter fallacy to anyone who might still survive from the British governance of the mandate.

    Israel was born out of violence.

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  5. The anonymous guy above needs a paradigm shift on his history (because he's completely wrong). Let's talk about UN resolution 181 of 1947.
    Part 1, Section B:

    "Settling all international disputes in which the State may be involved by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security, and justice, are not endangered"

    The Jews supported this. The Arabs rejected this and launched a full scale war.


    Note that the anonymous guy didn't argue against my second claim...because he can't.

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  6. ...That was the UN before it was hijacked by the Arab block.

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  7. So, there was no violence involved in the lead up to 181?

    The British Mandate was not in management of the region when the Lehi, Haganah and Irgun engaged in what must have been (see Paul above) entirely legitimate, peaceful, promotion of the establishment the state of Israel?

    "Ever BEFORE Israel was created, the Jews wanted peace" was what I referred to, and that is what is a fallacy.

    By the time of 181, the British were no longer actively involved. They had gone. They were no more in control.

    And - prior to their leaving - there was a great deal of violence from the 3 groups I have mentioned, and no call from those groupings for peacefully negotiating towards the state of Israel.

    I'll take a history lesson, but not from someone who wants to take that history as starting after the events I addressed.

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  8. But, post that history:-

    The United Nations Security Council called the assassins "a criminal group of terrorists," and Lehi was similarly condemned by the subsequent United Nations mediator Ralph Bunche.

    Israel granted a general amnesty to Lehi members on 14 February 1949. In 1980 the group was honored by the institution of the Lehi ribbon, a military decoration awarded "for military service towards the establishment of the State of Israel".

    .....and terrorists are transmuted into heros of the state!

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  9. Hey "anonymous," you're right.

    The Jews of the Yishuv did not want peace.

    After 2,000 years of persecutions and pogroms and expulsions, the Jews who fled the Pale of Settlement, because they were getting their asses kicked by the majority population in the Ukraine and Russia and Poland, came to the traditional homeland of the Jewish people in order to fight a population 100 times its size.

    It's not as if they came to escape persecution, God knows. They clearly came as aggressors whose sole purpose was to persecute others. This must be because the Jews, as a group, are vicious scum who desire nothing more than to beat up on Arabs.

    Sweet, innocent Arabs.

    It's only natural that the local Arab population would side with the Nazis and try to kill the Jews in their midst, as they did in the Uprising of '36 to '39.

    Remember, the Arabs are entirely innocent and the Jews, who represent one one-hundredth their number, are entirely guilty.

    They're bad people who deserve whatever they get, eh?

    Right?

    {And you expect me to support you politically? Ho-ho-ho.}

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  10. Hey Annonymous,

    Of course there was violence - no one is denying that. Of course there were violent Jews (there were a ton more violent Arabs, though)

    The point is that the Jews didn't want it. The formation of the Irgun and the Hagana was to protect Jews from Arab aggression. At the first chance for peace (res 181), the Jews jumped on the opportunity while the Arabs rejected it.

    Hence, this is clear indication that although there was violence involving Jews, the Jews did want peace and the Arabs wanted the elimination of the Jewish people (as Karmafish alluded to).

    Annonymous, you are poned!

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  11. Love your spin.

    Spin away, and keep spinning until (in your dreams) the whole world gets dizzy and falls down.

    If you are incapable at taking a look at the history of the establishment of the state of Israel without the jaundice in your eyes neither I nor anyone else can help you.

    Israel was born out of violence. Fact.

    Israel was established by predominatntly European Jews who had suffered unconscionably during WW2.

    Haganah, Irgun and Lehi were formed to fight for the establishment of a state against the British Mandate. They had little to nothing to do with "protection" against the Arabs.

    Those Jews immigrated en masse to a small country whose population saw the incomers as a threat and reacted against them.

    That population was given a "take it or leave it" option.

    They left it.

    There has been trouble ever since, and a lot of it caused by the people who had been there before even one European Jew arrived (that would be "Arabs" for these purposes.

    A great many of the problems that have arisen have been caused by the incomers.

    "Hence, this is clear indication that although there was violence involving Jews, the Jews did want peace and the Arabs wanted the elimination of the Jewish people" is a mistaken spin on reality. It would be far more accurate to say that what the Arabs rejected was the imposition of large numbers of foreigners, en masse, into their homeland (you know "homeland", as in that place the European Jews were seeking?)

    Reverse the situation. Place a predominantly Jewish population in Palestine and invite (tell them its going to happen) huge numbers of (say) Sri Lankans to move in. Do you suppose for more than a fraction of a second that the Jewsish people of Palestine would agree to that?

    Jews are wonderful people in my experience.

    If you choose to believe that "the Arabs are entirely innocent and the Jews, who represent one one-hundredth their number, are entirely guilty", that is your prerogative, but include me out.

    Isn't "pone" a North American Indian bread?

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  12. Nice strategy - spinning history and then accusing me of doing the spinning...typical.

    Actually, most "Palestinians" migrated from Syria after the Jews transformed the swamps and deserts into fertile land.

    True, there were actual Palestinians who lived in the Palestinian Mandate for centuries (there were also Jews who lived in the land for centuries). In this situation, the incoming Jews bought the land legally from absentee landlords, most of whom lived in Syria.

    Annonymous, you should read up the archaeological findings and the deductions made on Palestinian people.


    Regardless, you still haven't successfully counter-argued my original point: Even though there were violent Jews (and it's important to keep in mind that there were more violent Arabs), the Jews wanted peace as indicated by their acceptance of 181. On the other hand, the Arabs rejected 181 since they wanted the elimination of the Jews.

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  13. Again, in 2000/2001 when Arafat was offered all of gaza, 97% of the west bank (and land from Israel proper to compensate for the 3%), East Jerusalem, AND SOVEREIGNTY over the Temple Mound, Arafat refused!!!!!

    This was an offer he couldn't refuse (go ask Abbas!!! Even Abbas said he was wrong for not accepting). Nevertheless, he rejected it. The reason: because Arafat, like many Palestinians (including those in 1947), are more obsessed with wiping out Israel than they are with building up a Palestinian state to live in peace with Israel.

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  14. I really did not anticipate encountering Hasabara in this extremity of the web, but your response is pure, off the page, hasbara, educated by GIYUS.


    I have demonstrated my point.

    You have demonstrated that you have not one jot of knowledge about what the situation actually was at the times from 1917 onwards, either in political, ethnographic or any other terms.

    I am far too polite to say it, so I will hand over to the Rabbi I respect who is sat at my right shoulder



    BOLLOCKS.

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  15. so your entire argument is spewing mistruths and claiming that I'm off the wall.

    Next time, I hope I can argue with someone more intellectual.

    Well, nevertheless, it was fun.
    Thanks!
    Be well!

    -Paul

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  16. OK. Let's get rid of all the bullsh-t and get straight to the facts. Go into the site and see the conclusive proof that Jews have EVERY right to live, breed and do whatever they want in Israel, because it's theirs historically and legally. As for the British Mandate, who were THEY to tell Jews what to do in thier own homeland.
    The second video I'm posting will show you the brutality of Hamas to its own people and the integrity and compassion of the Israeli army. Sorry of the facts aren't politically correct!

    http://ctstv.com/ontario/player.php?ctsvidID=17133&show=On

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  17. Hamas using its own people as human shields vs the integrity of the IDF, and a video taken by a PALESTINIAN!!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuCzHQB1sks&feature=player_embedded

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9i57PrvlCWo&feature=player_embedded

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