Sunday, April 18, 2010

HPW: British Bishop Convicted For Denying Holocaust

The Richard Williamson sage continues on the Huffington Post with this thread, about his recent conviction. It's a very popular thread with over 900 comments, and it's still going strong. Most of the discussions in the thread were about the nature of free speech versus hate speech, whether or not it's okay to legislate people's thoughts, and so forth. Other discussions were not so civil, and they usually took the form of Holocaust cynicism and other forms of not-quite-anti-Semitism. Anti-Zionists Theou and zbowling were out on the thread as well, the former defending Holocaust deniers with all his might and claiming that they were only "asking questions," the latter accusing the Jews of making the Holocaust all about them and trying to equate it with the Nakba. And of course, cliffhammond was there as well, with more comments than the one we spotlighted on Friday.

Here are the comments that I felt were worthy of note. I suggest you take a look at them.

Bishop Thread

chuck prebys
"The Roman Catholic bishop was barred by his order from attending Friday's proceedings or making statements to the media."
The days of Thought crime are here.
............And I am sick sick sick of people holding up the "Holocaust" in my face as if I were somehow responsible for it.

toxicbrainpoison
When people get rounded up and walled into confined areas, the people doing it usually want to kill the people that they have rounded up. Any parallels Israel?

chuck prebys
Get your information straight.
They DO control media and hollywood to a very large extent:
Most of these industries are bundled into huge media conglomerates run by the following seven individuals:
[edited for length]
Those seven Jewish men collectively control ABC, NBC, CBS, the Turner Broadcasting System, CNN, MTV, Universal Studios, MCA Records, Geffen Records, DGC Records, GRP Records, Rising Tide Records, Curb/Universal Records, and Interscope Records.
Even Ben Stein gleefully accepts that they (can't use the word here or be edited) control Hollywood.
Pull the head out and investigate the background of who runs things.

fedupwithpolitics
This is disgraceful--Germany is now a free speech denier. Let people say what they want, and let history and truth prevail. Just another case of liberal guilt caving in to zionist pressure. We are all worse off for Germany's lack of democratic principles.
[response]
CologneCitizen
If one country seems to be under zionist pressure it is the USA and not Germany.
We are all worse off for your lack of b.alls and letting Israel play you like a fiddle.

NevaforLeadership
What I find disturbing is how history is being changed.
Approximately 12,000,000 people were exterminated in Nazi concentration camps, yet all we ever hear about are the 6,000,000 Jews who were exterminated.
The systematic plan to exterminate a group of people is a beyond shameful episode in modern history, but what about the other 6,000,000? Were their lives and families not as valid?
Maybe there should be legislation that the whole story be told.

Theou
What I find disturbing is how history is being changed.
NevaforLeadership, the rest of your post suggests that that is not changed history but partial history that has become enshrined that disturbs you.
The law is in place to ensure that the whole story should NOT be told.
That is the nasty secret behind legislation against Holocaust denial.
And now we shall see if this comment gets past the mods.

Theou
The merits of being able to lawfully deny genocide whilst standing on the bones of the victims
Hmm, GSR that reminds me of attempts in Israel to ban commemoration of the Nakba.
[response]
Ergon
But THEIR tragedy is the greatest of all time, it even wins Oscars!

David Rozgonyi
Before I leave, a few final thought:
There is no punishment or law on any books against the denial of the numbers of homosexuals and gypsies that were killed during the German Holocaust, even though people do it all the time. I really hate double standards, and I'm not afraid to say it. So sue me. Or better yet, throw me in jail.

Paladin2
It's been turned into an extortive industry and is a great red herring for all those dead Asians, Iraqis, Palestinians, Iranians, Central Americans, Native Americans, Japanese, Turks, Serbs, Croats, Haitians, etc. etc. etc.
[response]
Stirner
Well, as Professor Finkelstein has said, "There's no business like Shoah business".
martin2
The biggest deniers of a holocaust are does who claim there is only one the Jewish one.

martin2
The biggest deniers of the holocaust are those who claim there was only one holocaust. [Many comments like this.]

cliffhammond
This is a grossly antisemitic remark. [It isn't; click for context. After exposing himself as an anti-Semite, cliffhammond then proceeded to go around the thread spamming the above comment.]

Theou
While tracing the roots of the German legislation against "Holocaust Denial" [Not the scare quotes.] I came across this gem:
The delicate task of distinguishing those truly complicit in or responsible for Nazi activities from mere "followers" made the work of the courts yet more difficult. US President Harry S. Truman alluded to this problem in the justification of his refusal to allieviate THE INDUCED FAMINE FROM WHICH THE GERMAN POPULATION SUFFERED: “though all Germans might not be guilty for the war, it would be too difficult to try to single out for better treatment those who had nothing to do with the Nazi regime and its crimes.”
How many people on this thread were aware of an "induced famine" in post WW2 Germany?
And what light does it shed on the adherence to high standards of regard for human rights of the Allies?
Does the above count as Holocaust Denial?
Ergon
In this particular case I am defending Germans, and the manufactured history against them.
Ergon
"I agree with the sentiment (of rape) if not the means"?. Reminds me of Elie Wiesel's memoirs, where he claims to have raped German women after he was evacuated from Auschwitz.
Revenge rape. The fall back position of the ever infantile, and nothing to do with the modern European Enlightenment you claim to be such a fan of.
Nope, you seem to be Talmudically inclined.

Ergon
Isn't the world a safer place now that the fatwa against Bishop Williamson's been carried out?

Theou
The Holocaust as an enshrined unassailable narrative is very much in the same mode as a myth, if it were not proper scholarship would be allowed not mere demonology.

Tasies
It's a disservice to doubt the Holocaust, but it's also a disservice to apply Draconian measures to those who belittle it or deny it. At the this point, the Holocaust has been used, re-used, amplified, propagandized, packaged and re-packaged to the point were a lot of people are becoming desensitized.

cliffhammond
Would that reasoning also apply to the laws in France prohibiting Muslim women from wearing a burqua? Would it apply to suicide bombings in Tel Aviv? After all, Palestinians have an entirely different cultural experience than Americans can imagine.
And what about the Holocaust being carried out against the Palestinians? Funny how karma works its ironic twists. The more the Israelis insist on punitive measures against all their perceived enemies to the point of suppression of liberties, the more they prove themselves no better than their original perpetrators. That have become the very demons about whom they have obsessed.

Ergon
An Allied Occupation and forcible re-education has a wonderful way of making people feel guilty about something that they never were responsible for in the first place.
Theou
Aziat,
may I ask why asking questions about this particular historical event should deserve a psychiatric diagnosis.
Are you aware that:
A New Orleans physician, Samuel Cartwright (1793–1863), believed that slaves sometimes suffered from a peculiar form of mental illness that he termed drapetomania, the abnormality that caused slaves to run away, from drapeto, meaning "to flee," and "mania," "an obsession." Clearly, however, Cartwright had subjective motives for his peculiar example.
Is it possible that Walter Reich also has "subjective motives."

Theou
overcat, what you say is possibly true, however, many of the people who wish to enshrine The Holocaust also believe in the exist of inferior and superior groups and support a contemporary system that is based on that belief.

cliffhammond
I'm curious; do you go to prison in Germany for bad mouthing gay and lesbian people?

Theou
Aziat, in any discussion that you control there is no room for any latitude. Only wholehearted condemnation of "holocaust deniers" is allowed.

izirbat
The greater question is that why is Holocaust denial the only free speech punishable by law? IN Germany, France, Australia, Canada and many other countries you get punished JUST for Holocaust denial speech but if you deny the Ukrainian Holocaust which by any definition was a greater Holocaust is not.
The historical event of Stalin killing 12 million Ukrainians (most by starving them to death and ti took place after the German Holocaust) is open to analysis and scrutiny but not the German Holocaust. Why?
Why is this one special? Why do we have an International day for German Holocaust but ignore far greater Holocausts though out our history?
Answer this and you will know the reason why it is illegal to question the German Holocaust.

Theou
So far as I know StC, it is the only "speech" that questions a particular historic narrative or interpretation that is punishable by law in a democratic country.
I may be mistaken.

trackfan
Why aren't Native Americans given the same special status of Jews? Afterall, what Americans did to them was much more devestationg than what the Nazis did to the Jews.
1939 - 12,000,000 Jews worldwide
1845 - 6,000,000 Jews
1776 - 15,000,000 native Americans in North America
1890 - 250,000 native Americans
Also, I understand why there are Holocaust museums in Europe and why places like Dachau and Auschwitz have been memorialized. And I understand why there are Civil Rights museums in places like Memphis and Birmingham in the U.S. But why are there a Holocaust museums in the U.S.? By the same token, shouldn't there be Civil Rights museums in Germany?

ttimotteo
6 million I mean come on. Somehow I doubt it
Also why is it you hardly hear of the other victims of the holocaust besides the jews.

izirbat
Up to 1995 the sign at the gate of Auschwitz declared that 4 million Jews died at that location and this 4 million was included in the 6 million count.
However in 1995 they changed the sign without any publicity to 1.5 million. Therefore by their own admission the count went down to 3.5 million.
http://www.artukraine.com/famineart/stvictims.htm

cliffhammond
They don't seem to expend one iota of a drop of compassion for gays, gypsies and political dissidents who went down with them. How they got laws passed like this one in Germany is testament to the power over the message they now exercise worldwide. And please don't call me anti whatever. That is such a tired canard. It only drives people further into reactionary politics and opinions regarding the ....imperialism that is going on in the name of religion.

cliffhammond
But I don't doubt the holocaust. Do you doubt Plan Dalet is still in effect?

cliffhammond
I know that's true of Israel. And it's getting close to a definition of fascism.

cliffhammond
What I read was that he didn't believe that gas was the method. The issue I think we should all be concerned with, given the overwhelming influence of a particular foreign lobby in Washington that says it's not a foreign lobby, but one that nevertheless has a firm grip around the throat of American foreign policy via bribery, blackmail, the threat of smear campaigns, espionage and campaign funding that equates to purchasing your own senator, is the notion that "it can't happen here." This group has enough influence to have videos pulled on YouTube that oppose the thinking of the party line and to censor what is said right here on this site. It's all around you. It's the obsession with control that causes a negative reaction in me -- one that has driven me to the political side of those who oppose this fascism.

FACTISFACT
[edited for length]
Then again is it not a shame for those who are crying on Holocausts and seek justice indulge in deeds that tantamount similar to Holocaust for over 60 years on occupied land. If denial of this Holocaust committed for over 60 years in occupied land by the descendants of dead in Holocaust in Germany can be denied by the world body and no case is taken up in any court not even in International court of justice then why not the Holocaust of Germany can be denied?

american-dolt
I find this very serious and very disturbing. The man has a right to his opinion, right or wrong. I find Germany's decision to try someone like this as bad as the Holocaust.
BTW: I am skeptical of what happened in WW2
[follow up]
american-dolt
You are a frightened little creep. I have a right to my opinion, and from what I have seen and researched from both jew and non-jew sources, my opinion is valid.

american-dolt
Those "facts" are refutable. I believe something went down but it is not 100% genuine as reported by the Jews. I don't know why this event in History cannot be questioned. Someone writes History from their own perspective.
P.S. Don't be so insulting, you are not helping your case.

zbowling
The holocaust is being made into an idol of worship. No other event of mass death is held as precious or as horrible as this one. Yet the Holdomor is not recognized by Israel that killed up to 10 million.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor The nakba is also denied by Israel, and they have made it illegal to mourn, or to recognize it in history books. Where is the equal treatment?
No one should be punished for speaking out about what they believe about history. History - all of it is an exercise in revision. This is politics.
This is not any different than punishing scientific heretics in the middle ages. If they have the historical proof to prove him wrong, then use it. Shutting him up in prison, and gagging him has the opposite effect. if he's wrong then so what? Who does it hurt?
The problem with holding one genocide above another is that it denies the pain and recognition of the others. This breeds resentment.

zbowling
Because 10 million poles were lost in the 1930's. They want the monopoly on suffering.
zbowling
We need to recognize more than one genocide. Recognizing only the holocaust, and that Jews perished has set them apart as the greatest victims and by proxy, incapable of rendering the same fate on another people. How often to we hear 6 million? There were 12 million killed.
Our fathers and mothers suffer guilt over not recognizing what was happening in Germany and it's further reinforced by setting it apart as greater than all the others. Because of that guilt they refuse to see what is happening in Palestine.
Never again, for me but hot for thee.
That's what I see happening - NOW!
zbowling
Have you checked out the comments at http://www.jpost.com/ or http://www.haaretz.com/ ?
The abused have become the abusers. The anti-denialists have become the deniers.
If it's illegal in Germany, denial of Palestinian suffering should be made illegal in Israel too.

zbowling
Ironically, the Nakba is being made illegal to mention or recognize in Israel.

x76
A transparent international forensic examination of all existing physical evidence of the Holocaust would be welcome by all parties, I'm sure. This would include any National Socialist records and BUDGETS.
Of course, no one believes that any of the Holocaust has been exaggerated. A thorough investigation and exposition using modern forensic techniques, ground-sensing radar, et cetera, is clearly in order to completely document the disaster.

BodyShotz
How the h3ll is it against the law not to agree with something? 100 million Africans died during the middle passage. If someone denied that happened, they don't go to jail for it. What makes a Holocaust denier a criminal? Both horrendous tragedies, but neither the first to be slaughtered by the millions in the history of man. What makes "them" so protected?

zbowling
Those that deny the suffering of Palestinians and even cheer it on, and deny the nakba also have freedom to spread their vile bigotry and hate here too.

1 comment:

  1. As I noted, the fact such comments remain up at the HP tells us two things: the world hasn't learned anything from the Holocaust and anti-Semitism is respectable again that no one finds anything wrong with it.

    ReplyDelete